Bartleby Blog
Using the Billy Collins poem, discuss how its meaning helps us understand Bartleby and the philosophical values which dictate his actions (or lack thereof) in the short story. Your contributions/comments need to occur at least 24 hours apart—don’t post two times in a row. Each comment must not exceed 75 words – so be concise!
What I found particularly interesting of Collins’ poem was the true lack of helplessness the people experienced. Even though there is a society that seems to change into metaphorical birds “flapping arms”, the only communication between them is “knowing waves”. If Bartleby in fact experiences helplessness, perhaps that’s why he reverts to isolation.
What do you think of the bird allusion? In Melville’s story, there is a mention of birds in paragraph 244.
(Nate) The poem accurately represents what I believe was present throughout the story. Bartleby does(most times doesn't) do whatever he wants and the people seem helpless, and unable to stop what he is doing. For a community which seems to have the makings and possibilities for success, the 'knowing waves' do seem to create a disconnect. I believe Bartleby's inability to get any help he needs is why he becomes so succluded and isolated.
Mr. Freeman, I agree. I just wanted to say that the people in Bartleby the Scrivener seem very helpless. In paragraph 171, there is a great example of Bartleby's increasing unawareness and isolation to the outside world, as taken from the narrator's perspective: "For all your coaxing, he will not budge. Bribes he leaves under your own paperweight...it is quite plain that he prefers to cling to you". Perhaps this relates to Billy Collins's view of other isolationists that: "you will catch up to other flying people who refused to batten down". It seems to me that isolationists have the tendency to rub some of their isolationism off on others, subjecting them to use introspection to examine their own conscience and reality.
Maybe not his inablilty to get help but his perception of life; I was wondering what anyone thinks about the relevance of the monotonous activity described in the poem in parallel to Bartleby? This metaphor could connect with Bartleby in that he holds the tedious job of copyist and previously he was worked for the dead mail, which explains his strange nature. Since monotonous work could be the reason that Bartleby has withdrawn from society, are those who do "batten down" those who choose to live in seclusion because of the monotony they find in life?
Kathryn the story does seem to support that conclusion. While the others seem to continue to push forward and "ice skate into a sixty mile an hour wind". The other workers at the office all are able to relate to each other, but Bartleby chooses isolation. In the poem those who skate in the wind eventually catch other people, but Bartleby never catches the others, causing him to remain in isolation and eventually die alone.
Kathryn, I had actually seen Bartleby as a character who refused to "batten down". In Melville's story, refusing to work was the equivalent to refusing to batten down. Because Bartleby represents seclusion, I would argue that those you choose to live in seclusion aren't necessarily the ones who are giving up. Bartleby was successful in defying societal norms, though ended up sacrificing his life. I believe Collins' conclusion to his poem, with the flying people, suggests that although the ultimate price was Bartleby's life, in the end - after life or something of that nature - his life of isolation and eventual death is rewarded with a community of others who did the same, the flying people.
In relation to the significant point that Collins makes with his repetition of "battening down", he is harshly criticizing Bartleby for his inability to conform to the seemingly-efficient, hard working order of reality that surrounds him. As Bartleby pushes his luck by continuously repeating "I would rather not", he does just the opposite of giving up - he goes until the realists can no longer take his nonsense. Collins and Melville would beg to say that the isolationist, Bartleby, should either conform to society, or blatantly get knocked on your ass with the rest of the nonsense that people try to pull every day.
I didn't realize the word count limit - I most sincerely apologize for my failure in reading the directions. If this is even allowed, here's the point I made above in 74 words:
In Melville's story, refusing to work was the equivalent to refusing to batten down. Because Bartleby represents seclusion, I would argue that those you choose to live in seclusion aren't necessarily the ones who are giving up. Bartleby gave his life to defy social norms. I believe Collins' flying people suggests that although the ultimate price was Bartleby's life, in the end, his life of isolation is rewarded with others who did the same.
I think that Abi is right, and the end of story fits her idea. The narrator says Bartleby is "asleep with kings and counselors"; he is making Bartleby's death seem almost pleasant. I think this relates to poem- the few who chose to stand up against the wind end up being the flying individuals in a world that can more understand them. I think this is what the narrator’s line at the end meant, Bartleby didn’t belong in society-he is happier with kings and counselors through his death.
I agree with Abi and Tara that Bartleby's death, when paired with "kings" and "counselors" becomes pleasent, even glorified. His life and stature is raised above what is reality. But, I don't know if I necessarily agree with your complete conclusion. While I agree that Bartleby did not belong in society, I feel as if the reference to Kings and Counselors is where he wishes he was.
In concurrence with Tara I do believe that Bartleby's death was something of peace, But I stand by my previous point that Bartleby did in fact batten down. The ice skaters in the poem are the ones who are taking an active role in society- aka not battening down. But Bartleby more closely mimics the on lookers who do batten down, because by living in seclusion he is not active. I hardly see "I prefer not" as someone who is an actively rebelling against society.
I agree with Kathryn; Bartleby did in fact did 'batten down' shortly after arriving at the law office, as referenced by his savings of money (P. 91) and his possessing of the law office by making it his territory/habitat. Furthermore, backward progress (as in the poem) is only made by the narrator, as he is essentially forced to leave by the "gale" (i.e. Bartleby), while Bartleby experiences a favorable ending.
Kathryn and Nate, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the ice skaters in the poem symbolizes working men, the majority of society. The way I interpreted the poem was that those who kept "battening down" could be connected with the boss. If you think about it, the wind (Bartleby) keeps pushing the people (the boss) backwards, "an inch every twenty minutes". This is equivalent to the boss moving his office because of Bartleby.
Nate, while I agree with the majority of your point, I feel that those that continue to struggle against the gale experience a favorable ending, not Bartleby. Because of his isolation (battening down) Bartleby dies of starvation in the prison with "dim eyes". While the Lawyer does seem to travel backwards because of his efforts, he still has his life at the end of the story, a more favorable fate than that of Bartleby.
I see everyone's point now, Bartelby did in fact, "battten down" by choosing to isolate himself rather than face problems head on. Rather than simply adressing an uncomfortable issue such as Herman telling Bartebly to leave, Bartelby chooses to respond with "I perfer not". Perhaps the end of the story, then symbolizes all that an isolated indiviudal has to hold onto are fantasies that don't exist. However, these individuals will be able to "ride the great wind north" as the poem suggests. Isolated indivuals are free to live in their own fantasy world- which could be positive or negative for the individual and society.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhat I found particularly interesting of Collins’ poem was the true lack of helplessness the people experienced. Even though there is a society that seems to change into metaphorical birds “flapping arms”, the only communication between them is “knowing waves”. If Bartleby in fact experiences helplessness, perhaps that’s why he reverts to isolation.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think of the bird allusion? In Melville’s story, there is a mention of birds in paragraph 244.
(Nate) The poem accurately represents what I believe was present throughout the story. Bartleby does(most times doesn't) do whatever he wants and the people seem helpless, and unable to stop what he is doing. For a community which seems to have the makings and possibilities for success, the 'knowing waves' do seem to create a disconnect. I believe Bartleby's inability to get any help he needs is why he becomes so succluded and isolated.
ReplyDeleteMr. Freeman, I agree. I just wanted to say that the people in Bartleby the Scrivener seem very helpless. In paragraph 171, there is a great example of Bartleby's increasing unawareness and isolation to the outside world, as taken from the narrator's perspective: "For all your coaxing, he will not budge. Bribes he leaves under your own paperweight...it is quite plain that he prefers to cling to you". Perhaps this relates to Billy Collins's view of other isolationists that: "you will catch up to other flying people who refused to batten down". It seems to me that isolationists have the tendency to rub some of their isolationism off on others, subjecting them to use introspection to examine their own conscience and reality.
DeleteMaybe not his inablilty to get help but his perception of life; I was wondering what anyone thinks about the relevance of the monotonous activity described in the poem in parallel to Bartleby? This metaphor could connect with Bartleby in that he holds the tedious job of copyist and previously he was worked for the dead mail, which explains his strange nature. Since monotonous work could be the reason that Bartleby has withdrawn from society, are those who do "batten down" those who choose to live in seclusion because of the monotony they find in life?
ReplyDeleteKathryn the story does seem to support that conclusion. While the others seem to continue to push forward and "ice skate into a sixty mile an hour wind". The other workers at the office all are able to relate to each other, but Bartleby chooses isolation. In the poem those who skate in the wind eventually catch other people, but Bartleby never catches the others, causing him to remain in isolation and eventually die alone.
DeleteKathryn, I had actually seen Bartleby as a character who refused to "batten down". In Melville's story, refusing to work was the equivalent to refusing to batten down. Because Bartleby represents seclusion, I would argue that those you choose to live in seclusion aren't necessarily the ones who are giving up. Bartleby was successful in defying societal norms, though ended up sacrificing his life. I believe Collins' conclusion to his poem, with the flying people, suggests that although the ultimate price was Bartleby's life, in the end - after life or something of that nature - his life of isolation and eventual death is rewarded with a community of others who did the same, the flying people.
ReplyDeleteIn relation to the significant point that Collins makes with his repetition of "battening down", he is harshly criticizing Bartleby for his inability to conform to the seemingly-efficient, hard working order of reality that surrounds him. As Bartleby pushes his luck by continuously repeating "I would rather not", he does just the opposite of giving up - he goes until the realists can no longer take his nonsense. Collins and Melville would beg to say that the isolationist, Bartleby, should either conform to society, or blatantly get knocked on your ass with the rest of the nonsense that people try to pull every day.
DeleteThat was Jay's post by the way.
DeleteI didn't realize the word count limit - I most sincerely apologize for my failure in reading the directions. If this is even allowed, here's the point I made above in 74 words:
DeleteIn Melville's story, refusing to work was the equivalent to refusing to batten down. Because Bartleby represents seclusion, I would argue that those you choose to live in seclusion aren't necessarily the ones who are giving up. Bartleby gave his life to defy social norms. I believe Collins' flying people suggests that although the ultimate price was Bartleby's life, in the end, his life of isolation is rewarded with others who did the same.
I think that Abi is right, and the end of story fits her idea. The narrator says Bartleby is "asleep with kings and counselors"; he is making Bartleby's death seem almost pleasant. I think this relates to poem- the few who chose to stand up against the wind end up being the flying individuals in a world that can more understand them. I think this is what the narrator’s line at the end meant, Bartleby didn’t belong in society-he is happier with kings and counselors through his death.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Abi and Tara that Bartleby's death, when paired with "kings" and "counselors" becomes pleasent, even glorified. His life and stature is raised above what is reality. But, I don't know if I necessarily agree with your complete conclusion. While I agree that Bartleby did not belong in society, I feel as if the reference to Kings and Counselors is where he wishes he was.
DeleteIn concurrence with Tara I do believe that Bartleby's death was something of peace, But I stand by my previous point that Bartleby did in fact batten down. The ice skaters in the poem are the ones who are taking an active role in society- aka not battening down. But Bartleby more closely mimics the on lookers who do batten down, because by living in seclusion he is not active. I hardly see "I prefer not" as someone who is an actively rebelling against society.
DeleteI agree with Kathryn; Bartleby did in fact did 'batten down' shortly after arriving at the law office, as referenced by his savings of money (P. 91) and his possessing of the law office by making it his territory/habitat. Furthermore, backward progress (as in the poem) is only made by the narrator, as he is essentially forced to leave by the "gale" (i.e. Bartleby), while Bartleby experiences a favorable ending.
DeleteKathryn and Nate, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the ice skaters in the poem symbolizes working men, the majority of society. The way I interpreted the poem was that those who kept "battening down" could be connected with the boss. If you think about it, the wind (Bartleby) keeps pushing the people (the boss) backwards, "an inch every twenty minutes". This is equivalent to the boss moving his office because of Bartleby.
DeleteNate, while I agree with the majority of your point, I feel that those that continue to struggle against the gale experience a favorable ending, not Bartleby. Because of his isolation (battening down) Bartleby dies of starvation in the prison with "dim eyes". While the Lawyer does seem to travel backwards because of his efforts, he still has his life at the end of the story, a more favorable fate than that of Bartleby.
DeleteYet, as Abi said, Bartleby is with "kings and counselors". "More favorable" is relative.
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ReplyDeleteCheck your word counts, guys; I don't want to see anyone get screwed if Mr. Shah actually cares about it.
ReplyDeleteGood call, bro.
Delete#wordcountisforloserssss
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI see everyone's point now, Bartelby did in fact, "battten down" by choosing to isolate himself rather than face problems head on. Rather than simply adressing an uncomfortable issue such as Herman telling Bartebly to leave, Bartelby chooses to respond with "I perfer not". Perhaps the end of the story, then symbolizes all that an isolated indiviudal has to hold onto are fantasies that don't exist. However, these individuals will be able to "ride the great wind north" as the poem suggests. Isolated indivuals are free to live in their own fantasy world- which could be positive or negative for the individual and society.
ReplyDelete